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DIY - Mods on speakers

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DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by sph on Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:19 pm

This is my modded crossover of my speakers.


Only the components of the tweeter circuit (top section) has been changed.
These include the capacitor and the resistor.
The woofer circuit (the bottom part with the black stuff) is untouched.

The crossover is now on the outside on the back of the speaker.
The internal wiring too has been changed.

Overall the mod has elevated the speakers to a much higher level of performance.

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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by samn on Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:08 pm

Hi sph,
When you mentioned only the tweeter circuit has been changed, am I right to assume that the woofer circuit is still using the original crossover? Can share (if any) the spectrum diagram of your fascinating venture? I was wondering how much higher the tweeter has gone to in the audio spectrum (khz) and the overall spectrum. Btw, could you please share the capacitor and resistor specs and why you decide to use such specs? How long did you take to derived those conclusions. Thanks for sharing, really exciting. Very Happy
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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by sph on Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:20 am

Yes, only the tweeter circuit components were changed. It was just a simple swap of components of the same value with those of the original.
There isn't any need to redesign the circuit or recalculate any component value. Just changed the components for better ones, that's all.

Measurements were made with the ear-o-meter, ie no measurements of the audio spectrum.

The big blue capacitor in the photo is a Clarity Cap MR, bypassed with a Russian teflon cap (the silver color) while the resistor (white color) is a Mundorf.

Go to this website to read about the choice of capacitors -
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by Wikin on Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:49 am

sph wrote:This is my modded crossover of my speakers.

Only the components of the tweeter circuit (top section) has been changed.
These include the capacitor and the resistor.
The woofer circuit (the bottom part with the black stuff) is untouched.

The crossover is now on the outside on the back of the speaker.
The internal wiring too has been changed.

Overall the mod has elevated the speakers to a much higher level of performance.

Very rare branded stuffs are moded this way ! Kudos to your effort.
For the finishing touches, may I propose you buy those key chain wooden boxes so you can house the crossover into their new home.
Of course you'll need to invest in male + female banana connectors and make new umbilical cords but heck it'll look awesome.

cheers.
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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by adrian4454 on Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:20 pm

Hi SPH,
I hope you dont mind on sambo your thread for my own little coversion...

Epos M12I. Ori Bennic Cap, and unknown resistor(maybe Vishay)
Changed to
AuriCap and Kiwame resistor.
Much Much smoother sound than the Ori~

Good thing is, My Epos only has 2 components at the crossover..so it basically stop the ass itchiness right after the conversion.

[img][/img]

[img][/img]

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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by atoz on Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:03 pm

Hi Adrian,
Do you know at what frequency your epos crosses over?
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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by sph on Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:54 pm

Wikin,

I haven't got down to making a housing for the x-over. I would prefer to use a thick wooden base (like presently), but your idea of using a key box is worth considering if I can find something nice and solid.

Mmmm .... you've got a keen eye to recognize the brand of my speaker.

--------------------

Adrian4454,

I can imagine the improvement to your Epos with the cap change. The Bennics are anemic! I have not tried the Auricap, but I'm sure they are very good too. How much is the 2.2uf Auricap?

Initially, I used a Mundorf Supreme. It was good. Then I read about the cap test in Humble Homemade Hifi website and decided to try the ClarityCap MR as it was well rated, though it cost much more. But it was well worth the extra $$.

Is that all there is in the Epos x-over? Just one cap and one resistor? No inductor? Very simple indeed.

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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by adrian4454 on Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:00 am

Hi atoz,
If I am not mistaken it is 2.2k, 1st order. It is informed in the Epos website.

Hi sph,
Yes, it is that simple. The woofer didn't have any component, except it own mechanical high frequency cancelling using the stationary stiff pointing center cap. Few speaker makers use this method as well or combination of this with crossover component. If I am not mistaken the cap is RM80.. cant really remember. Got it from Octave. But they have limited selection. suppose I need a 160/200Vv version, but their is 450v.
I would suggest u order from Connexion Parts from US. They can even match for you the tolerance.
The Bennic cap is still ok la, it did the job admirably for the price we are paying.

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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by sph on Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:47 am

Adrian4454,

The higher voltage spec of the cap is better for the speakers.
The ClarityCap MR comes in 630V.
I ordered the caps from Madisound, delivered to a US address as I frequently travel there. Saves me on the postage.

Yes, the Epos circuit will save you the itchy fingers to do any further mod except to perhaps use other caps to experiment with.
Did you try using a small value cap like the Vishay MKP 1837 to bypass the Auricap? This is suppose the clear up the sound further. It doesn't cost much. Can order from RS.

I placed the x-over on the outside as it will be easier to do mods or to experiment with other caps in the future, besides isolating the caps from internal resonance in the cabinet.

I am in the process of experimenting with some hook-up wires for the drivers, especially the woofer. At the moment I am using silver coated ones, but I was recommended some thick copper ones. No harm trying.

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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by adrian4454 on Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:50 am

hi sph,
Look like u have a very severe itchy hand. Ya, me too thinking the higher voltage version would be better because of it thicker use of metal. In the contrary.. it may hamper micro details.. just my thought..

Dont really know what it take to bypass using another cap.. Do you mean run parallel 1 cap on the + and - of the tweeter cable? well this one will be something like a Zobel Network already. Done something like this before.. does have a more balance and flatter upper frequency, but it doesnt suit my taste.

Anyway, I believe in simplicity, and I dont really like more circuits on the musical path~

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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by atoz on Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:28 am

Thanks Adrian,
I didn't get the calculation right for the value indicated in your pic both the caps and the resistor for 2200hz xover for HF unless the tweeter is rated at 30 ohms. This is based on an online xover calculator format.
Anyone knows how it works?
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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by adrian4454 on Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:35 pm

Hi atoz,
I just replace the exact component reading. I dont change any value.. (In fact I do.. I later change resistor to 3 ohm to attenuate the total high frequency further). The 2.2kHz cross is informed by Epos. I dont know the actual value.
Beat me on the x-over calculation.. I am not good at all in this part of the DIY~

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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by atoz on Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:59 pm

Yeah i know, i am no expert at all.
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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by Wikin on Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:34 pm

atoz wrote:Thanks Adrian,
I didn't get the calculation right for the value indicated in your pic both the caps and the resistor for 2200hz xover for HF unless the tweeter is rated at 30 ohms. This is based on an online xover calculator format.
Anyone knows how it works?

Speaker crossover calculations are very tricky because the frequency is highly dependant on the impedance of the voice coil at a particular frequency. There are variables such as rising speaker voice coil impedance as the frequency rises and also temperature of the voice coil and also the box size and the rear damping material etc etc.

Not forgetting the cooling rate of the speaker's voice coil like over hung or under hung winding - all these affect the dynamics of the impedance during music playback.

There are tools to measure speaker impedance and then various calculation tools to add on to flatten the impedance before any calculations are carried out. Of course many manufacturers skimp on this due to what else, $$$.

Then depending on the cone's breakup frequency and its natural decay, one may not just add a textbook crossover frequency type e.g. 4th order linkwitz-riley on the cone and tweeter and hope to achieve the best integration. This is because the cone may already be starting to roll off its frequency so adding a 4th order may be effectively causing a total roll off of a 5th order.
So the sound may become 'cacat' or disjointed - then one may just diss out the 4th order which is not correct to assume.
Lots more to consider but these are some of the parameters involved.

cheers.
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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by sph on Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:24 pm

So, the easiest and foolproof way is to use the exact value (+- a little if exact value can't be found) component. This saves the headache of all the complicated calculations.

Adrian,
The bypass is done by paralleling the Auricap itself. The Vishay 1837 is a 0.01uf cap.
It's available from RS for peanuts.
http://malaysia.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=1666421

If you use the higher end caps I'm sure you will find more improvement to your speaker. The Mundorf M-Cap Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil is very well rated but it cost quite a fair bit.
After I upgraded from the Mundorf Supreme to the ClarityCap MR, greater micro details could be heard. The brushing of cymbals could now be distinguished easily.

Yes, I admit that I do have itchy fingers, but not that severe.

The capacitor change is easily the most significant improvement to my speakers. For those who are not very confident of carrying out the mod, take your time to Google it on the web and read the positive comments from those who have done the mod.
Find out more about the various speakers that have been modded. That's what I did before I jumped in to do surgery om my Sonus Faber (Yes, Wikin, you guessed it). Then with a little courage, take a screwdriver and have a look at the x-over inside. One step at a time ....

Like Wikin has suggested, the next step is to give the external x-over a nice housing. I think it deserves it.


Last edited by sph on Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:33 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added words)

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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by adrian4454 on Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:23 pm

Hi sph,
Yes indeed, we are in fact doing what the high end did to their hundred thousand ringgit product. Bad thing is, the rest of our speaker component doesnt measure up against the superior component. Nevertheless, the improvement / ringgit ratio for this type of DIY is much much better than others~

1 caveat though, there are purist among us that dont enjoy seeing us doing this, as it destroy the art of the originator of the speaker we mod Smile

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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by noodle88 on Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:29 pm

Hey, do u guys follow the outer foil of ur cap to output? Even non polar cap also has it's direction, do u all know that? Maybe put back the original cap in the correct direction will sound better than the modes ones??
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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by samn on Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:44 pm

Hi sph & adrian,
Mind sharing the total costs of your mods? Thanks.
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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by atoz on Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:43 pm

Hi Wikin,

Thanks for sharing, i feel more complicated now after your above explaination. I find the most common capacitor value for typical 2way designs is 2.2, 3.3 or most common 4.7uf for high frequencies cross over at 3khz to 4.2khz.
I am planing to build a 2way system using Rega famous RR125 drivers.
Most likely i will tune the crossover by ear rather then calculations.
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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by sph on Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:57 pm

The ClarityCap MR cost me USD55 each while the Mundorf resistors were USD2.50 each. That totaled up to USD115. It was well spent. Labour was free.

For the price list of the components of various value go to the link below -
http://www.partsconnexion.com/

https://www.madisound.com/about/capacitors.php


Last edited by sph on Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:58 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spacing)

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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by sss333 on Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:54 pm

some sharing:

If your original cap is film cap, then normally you can just plug in film cap with same value of different brand.

But if your original cap is bipolar ecap (alcap, bennic bipolar) and so on, then u shall measure the value, because the actual value normally larger than the indicated value. for example a 4uf can read 4.5uf and so on. u might shift the cross over point if u don't measure it.

Besides, some cap may have better transien (louder) such as OIMP, then might need to adjust the value of the resistor to achieve the balance.

Most challenging is when you change the inductor from ferite core/air core wire type to foil type. Because the frequency response of this 2 type is difference, u may need equipment to check otherwise it may sound worse then any improvement.

All the best!!

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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by sss333 on Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:59 pm

Additional info:

as noodle said, the direction of cap also will afftect. 1 directtion can give you more exciting but fatigue sound, the other can give you more relax and comfortable sound.

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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by adrian4454 on Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:19 pm

You always need to check very carefully on what you will be buying. Auricap does have polarity indication. It can be on the sleeve for the lead, or the lead that's shorter and another is longer. I follow that closely when doing mine, eventhough it is run in serial.


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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by sss333 on Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:55 pm

For power supply and crossover, most will recommend outer foil to ground/output.

But for signal couple is normally opposite. outer foil at input.

Below are some info, correct me if i'm wrong.
1) auricap- balck = outer foil (O-F)
2) Jensen, ampohm & audionote - the line is O-F
3) VCAP- Green is outer
4) mundorf- no indication (octave got put a marking), Suspect O-F on the word M.
5) duelund- use stack foil method, so both lead should be same.

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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by 7810sam on Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:38 pm

Hi sss333,
You good on cap and inductor. From my experience, My very old Klipsch speaker use film oil filled cap brand aerovox thought it will sound better with this expensive ampohm dry cap but at the end tak boleh pakai at all. Could not find the exact replacement. At last look for something physically similar, guess what, the cap use on aircond motor, brand genteq 2uf oil filled. After changing all the cap, the speaker sing again.
Before this, I was trying to mod the cross over by changing the value but to no avail, ended revert back to ori with new same type/value of cap.
Any idea how to identify the outer foil for this type of cap?

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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by sss333 on Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:02 pm

If u have OSK, then u can test out. Go visit jimmy auw's wedsite, he had done the test if not mistaken.
http://jimmyauw.com/2010/04/24/observing-inner-and-outer-foil-of-some-popular-capacitors/

We DIYer walk the similar road, the diffrent is just who walk the way 1st.


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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by noodle88 on Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:30 pm

7810sam wrote:Any idea how to identify the outer foil for this type of cap?

hi 7810sam, i can help u to find out the outer foil of caps.

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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by 7810sam on Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:14 pm

noodle88 wrote:
7810sam wrote:Any idea how to identify the outer foil for this type of cap?

hi 7810sam, i can help u to find out the outer foil of caps.

How? using test equipment or by indication?

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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by noodle88 on Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:07 am

Will use a ac voltmeter.
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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by sph on Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:39 am

Noddle88,
Can you explain how to use the AC voltmeter (multimeter on AC Volt setting, I presume?) ?

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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by noodle88 on Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:43 am

sph, u need to have this .... rabbit
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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by 7810sam on Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:55 pm

noodle88 wrote:sph, u need to have this .... rabbit

Can't afford to buy this. I'm not the hardcore diy'er. Will send to you
to chk.

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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by tycham on Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:10 pm

noodle88 wrote:sph, u need to have this .... rabbit

You mean you need a buck toothed wabbit to sniff out the outer foil of a capacitor?

lol!
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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by boonchang on Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:00 am

Hi everyone,

Just to revive this thread,

Is there any experts in KL who can do some measurement on the speakers response curve and recomend changes to the x-over, got a pair of castle speakers, love it but do feel that the stock tweeter is a bit inferior, being thinking of changing the tweeter to higher specs SEAS or Scanspeak.

Also seem to remember years ago there was an outfit called Hi Fidelity Enterprise with DIY speakers and selling premium scanspeak parts, are those guys still around, any idea?

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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by cmboy on Fri May 04, 2012 2:44 pm

boonchang wrote:
Also seem to remember years ago there was an outfit called Hi Fidelity Enterprise with DIY speakers and selling premium scanspeak parts, are those guys still around, any idea?
Cheers

Last met them few years ago, according to the guy, no more in that business. The guy is actually in the industry and business of metalwork fabrication and machining. Hifi was his pastime, hobby and passion.
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Re: DIY - Mods on speakers

Post by boonchang on Sat May 05, 2012 12:10 am

Hi cmboy,

Thanks for your info, if they still have the passion and willing to assist local audiophiles, that would be great news as speaker design is an art and requires highly skilled people. Come to think of it another local brand LST audio has gone quiet as well.

I believe hifi4sale should come up with a place for skillful people to advertise their their trade such as speaker veneering, turntable replinth, amplifier mod etc.

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